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This episode was recorded on May 17th, 2026 at the Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV. The lineup includes Paul Thorn, Ray Benson, Sunny Sweeney, Andy Friedman. https://bit.ly/4afWiMG⁠

In an episode we first ran back in 2019, we explore how a sunken nuclear submarine, a crazy billionaire, and a mechanical claw gave birth to a phrase that has hounded journalists and lawyers for 40 years and embodies the tension between the public’s desire for transparency and the government’s need to keep secrets.   Whether it comes from government spokespeople or celebrity publicists, the phrase “can neither confirm nor deny” is the perfect non-denial denial. It’s such a perfect deflection that it seems like it’s been around forever, but reporter Julia Barton takes us back to the 1970s and the surprising origin story of what’s now known as a “Glomar Response.” With help from David Sharp and Walt Logan, we tell the story of a clandestine CIA operation to lift a sunken Soviet submarine from the ocean floor and the dilemma they faced when the world found out about it. It’s an episode we first released in 2014, but given some things in the news recently, it resonated with us again. In the 40 years since that operation, the Glomar Response has become boilerplate language from an array of government agencies. With help from ProPublica editor Jeff Larson and NPR’s Dina Temple-Raston, we explore the implications of this ultimate information dodge. ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer explains how it stymies oversight, and we learn that, even 40 years later, governmental secrecy can be emotionally painful. More information about Glomar: After 40 years, many of the details of Project Azorian are only now coming to light. The US government’s default position has been to keep as much of it classified as possible. It took three years for retired CIA employee David Sharp to get permission to publish his account of Project Azorian. And FOIA played an indirect role in that, as Cold War historians got the CIA to release, in redacted form, an internal history of the mission. After that and a threat of legal action, Sharp was finally able to publish his manuscript in 2012. We mentioned conspiracy theories that have swirled around Project Azorian filling the void where official silence has reigned. One of them is promulgated in the 2005 book “Red Star Rogue” by Kenneth Sewell and Clint Richmond. They posit that the K-129 was taken over by rogue Stalinist KGB agents in order to start a nuclear conflict. But the conflict was to be between the US and China, as, according to the authors, the sub had powers to disguise its sonic signature as a Chinese Navy vessel. This book is the basis of the 2013 drama “Phantom,” which features Ed Harris and David Duchovny as Soviet military officers who sip vodka in a very un-Russian way. Russian Naval historians, like Nikolai Cherkashin, are not only insulted by this take on the cause of the K-129’s demise, they say the true cause is much easier to pinpoint: They say an American vessel, possibly the USS Swordfish, collided with the Soviet submarine. Despite the fact that the US government has turned over many documents about Project Azorian and what it found to the Russian government, many in the Russian Navy stand by their theory that it was far too easy for the US to locate the K-129 on the bottom of the Pacific, given the technology of the time. According to these theories, Project Azorian was nothing more than an elaborate cover-up disguised as … an elaborate cover-up. We can neither confirm nor deny that we exactly understand how that would have worked in practice or execution. It’s one of the more solemn moments of the Cold War, and one that the Glomar Response helped keep a secret for a very long time.LATERAL CUTS:What Lies Beneath (https://radiolab.org/podcast/what-lies-beneath)  EPISODE CREDITS:  Reported by – Julia Barton Sign up for our newsletter!! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Signup (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)! Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today. Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The Feelies were never a household name, but their jangly guitars and propulsive rhythms helped shape generations of indie rock. In the second installment of a two-part Classic Album Dissection, hosts Jim DeRogatis and Greg Kot take a deep dive into the band’s second album, The Good Earth.Join our Facebook Group: https://bit.ly/3sivr9TBecome a member on Patreon: https://bit.ly/3slWZvcSign up for our newsletter: https://bit.ly/4frcVZoMake a donation via PayPal: https://bit.ly/3dmt9lUSend us a Voice Memo: Desktop: bit.ly/2RyD5Ah  Mobile: sayhi.chat/soundops Featured Songs:The Feelies, "The Good Earth," The Good Earth, Coyote, 1986The Beatles, "With a Little Help from My Friends," Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Parlophone, 1967The Feelies, "Raised Eyebrows," Crazy Rhythms, Stiff, 1980The Feelies, "Slow Down," The Good Earth, Coyote, 1986The Feelies, "Outdoor Miner (Live on Sound Opinions)," NA, unreleased, 2008The Feelies, "Paint It Black (Live on Sound Opinions)," NA, unreleased, 2008The Feelies, "Slipping (Into Something)," The Good Earth, Coyote, 1986The Feelies, "Fame (Live in Something Wild)," NA, unreleased, 1986The Feelies, "The High Road (Live on Sound Opinions)," The Good Earth, Coyote, 1986The Feelies, "When Company Comes," The Good Earth, Coyote, 1986The Feelies and Yo La Tengo, "Sister Ray (Live)," NA, unreleased, 2023In3, "Beijing Evening News," Unknown Artists, self-released, 2008See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Stars age in a well-understood way. Nuclear fusion in a star’s core converts lighter elements to heavier ones. At some point, that process ends and the star dies. How long the star lives and how it does so are determined by its mass. But a recent study says that some stars could be powered in part by dark matter. That could affect how long the stars live, and make them look younger than they really are. Dark matter accounts for about 85 percent of all the matter in the universe. It produces no energy. We know it’s there only because its gravity tugs the visible matter around it. It may consist of some type of subatomic particle, but no one’s found it. But if certain types of dark-matter particles ram together, they may cancel each other with a flash. The study says that could impact stars in the center of the galaxy, where dark matter is tightly packed. Massive stars, with stronger gravity, could pull in more dark matter. That would keep them going practically forever. And it would make them look younger. Lighter stars couldn’t pull in enough dark matter to keep them going. Instead, the dark-matter reactions would blow the stars apart. A cluster at the heart of the galaxy contains many heavy stars that look young in some ways, but old in others. And the cluster doesn’t have any lightweight stars. That combination could mean that the evolution of the stars in that region is being influenced by dark matter. Script by Damond Benningfield

This week is an exploration of Blues music, Latino style.  Featured artists include Santana, Los Lonely Boys, Diamante Electrico, Bunbury, Andres Calamaro and many more.

Some people in this country think Antifa is a dangerous domestic terror organization. Some think that’s a complete myth. This week, we go to the federal trial where, for the first time, the government sets out to prove that Antifa is real. Zoe Chace reports. Visit thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners to sign up for our premium subscription.Prologue: Host Ira Glass tells the story of what happened at the Prairieland Detention Center in Alvarado, Texas. The government claims this was an attack by an Antifa cell. The defense says it was a protest gone awry. This argument goes to court in a first-of-its-kind trial. (7 minutes)Act One: Reporter Zoe Chace walks us through one of the worst days for the defense: all these guns. (5 minutes)Act Two: Zoe takes us through the testimony of the government’s Antifa expert. The defense team is optimistic that things are going well for them. (8 minutes)Act Three: Zoe goes to jail to talk with one of the cooperating witnesses for the prosecution, a former church lady named Lynette Sharp. She has a lot to say about the events in her life that led her to accept a plea deal and testify against her friends. (24 minutes)Act Four: The verdicts come in. (12 minutes)Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.orgThis American Life privacy policy.Learn more about sponsor message choices.