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This episode was recorded on May 17th, 2026 at the Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV. The lineup includes Paul Thorn, Ray Benson, Sunny Sweeney, Andy Friedman. https://bit.ly/4afWiMG⁠

In an episode we first ran back in 2014, we explore how a sunken nuclear submarine, a crazy billionaire, and a mechanical claw gave birth to a phrase that has hounded journalists and lawyers for 40 years and embodies the tension between the public’s desire for transparency and the government’s need to keep secrets.   Whether it comes from government spokespeople or celebrity publicists, the phrase “can neither confirm nor deny” is the perfect non-denial denial. It’s such a perfect deflection that it seems like it’s been around forever, but reporter Julia Barton takes us back to the 1970s and the surprising origin story of what’s now known as a “Glomar Response.” With help from David Sharp and Walt Logan, we tell the story of a clandestine CIA operation to lift a sunken Soviet submarine from the ocean floor and the dilemma they faced when the world found out about it. It’s an episode we first released in 2014, but given some things in the news recently, it resonated with us again. In the 40 years since that operation, the Glomar Response has become boilerplate language from an array of government agencies. With help from ProPublica editor Jeff Larson and NPR’s Dina Temple-Raston, we explore the implications of this ultimate information dodge. ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer explains how it stymies oversight, and we learn that, even 40 years later, governmental secrecy can be emotionally painful. More information about Glomar: After 40 years, many of the details of Project Azorian are only now coming to light. The US government’s default position has been to keep as much of it classified as possible. It took three years for retired CIA employee David Sharp to get permission to publish his account of Project Azorian. And FOIA played an indirect role in that, as Cold War historians got the CIA to release, in redacted form, an internal history of the mission. After that and a threat of legal action, Sharp was finally able to publish his manuscript in 2012. We mentioned conspiracy theories that have swirled around Project Azorian filling the void where official silence has reigned. One of them is promulgated in the 2005 book “Red Star Rogue” by Kenneth Sewell and Clint Richmond. They posit that the K-129 was taken over by rogue Stalinist KGB agents in order to start a nuclear conflict. But the conflict was to be between the US and China, as, according to the authors, the sub had powers to disguise its sonic signature as a Chinese Navy vessel. This book is the basis of the 2013 drama “Phantom,” which features Ed Harris and David Duchovny as Soviet military officers who sip vodka in a very un-Russian way. Russian Naval historians, like Nikolai Cherkashin, are not only insulted by this take on the cause of the K-129’s demise, they say the true cause is much easier to pinpoint: They say an American vessel, possibly the USS Swordfish, collided with the Soviet submarine. Despite the fact that the US government has turned over many documents about Project Azorian and what it found to the Russian government, many in the Russian Navy stand by their theory that it was far too easy for the US to locate the K-129 on the bottom of the Pacific, given the technology of the time. According to these theories, Project Azorian was nothing more than an elaborate cover-up disguised as … an elaborate cover-up. We can neither confirm nor deny that we exactly understand how that would have worked in practice or execution. It’s one of the more solemn moments of the Cold War, and one that the Glomar Response helped keep a secret for a very long time.LATERAL CUTS:What Lies Beneath (https://radiolab.org/podcast/what-lies-beneath)  EPISODE CREDITS:  Reported by – Julia Barton Sign up for our newsletter!! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Signup (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)! Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today. Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, hosts Jim DeRogatis and Greg Kot talk with author Yi Ling Liu about Chinese hip hop and how the music breaks through the infamous "fire wall" to connect to listeners. They’ll highlight some key artists and tracks, as well as put the music into the larger context.Join our Facebook Group: https://bit.ly/3sivr9TBecome a member on Patreon: https://bit.ly/3slWZvcSign up for our newsletter: https://bit.ly/4frcVZoMake a donation via PayPal: https://bit.ly/3dmt9lUSend us a Voice Memo: Desktop: bit.ly/2RyD5Ah  Mobile: sayhi.chat/soundops Featured Songs:Kafe.Hu, "Be Free," Kafreeman, Modern Sky, 2017The Beatles, "With a Little Help from My Friends," Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Parlophone, 1967Higher Brothers and Famous Dex, "Made In China (Prod. Richie Souf)," Black Cab, 88rising, 2017Skai Isyourgod, "Stacks from All Sides," Stacks from All Sides, Showstart Release, 2024In3, "Beijing Evening News," Unknown Artist, In3 Family, 2008Bohan Phoenix, "3 DAYS IN CHENGDU," JALA, loveloveNYC, 2017VAVA, "My New Swag (feat. Ty. & Nina Wang)," Crazy Rich Asians (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack), Warner Bros., 2017Bohan Phoenix, "NO HOOK (feat. Higher Brothers)," JALA, loveloveNYC, 2017Kafe.Hu, "Fire," Kafreeman, Modern Sky, 2017Jack White, "G.O.D. And The Broken Ribs," Frozen Charlotte, Third Man, 2026See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Stars follow a life-long weight-loss program. They blow hot gas off their surfaces. Over time, the amount of material in these “winds” can add up. Heavier stars, in fact, can expel enough gas to make several stars as massive as the Sun. An example is Antares, the leading light of Scorpius. It’s in good view tonight, to the left of the Moon as night falls. Antares is a supergiant – one of the biggest and brightest stars in the galaxy. It’s more than a dozen times the Sun’s mass. And it’s so big that if you placed it at the center of the solar system, it would extend past the orbit of Mars. But when Antares was born, about 11 million years ago, it was even heavier. Studies in recent years have placed its initial mass at about 15 to 17 times the Sun’s mass. Most of the difference has been blown into space on the star’s winds. Antares has lost so much of its original weight because it was heavy to begin with. A massive star “burns” through its nuclear fuel quickly, making its core extremely hot. Radiation from the core causes the star’s outer layers to puff outward. That far from the core, the surface gravity is fairly low, so it’s easy for radiation to push gas out into space. Antares is fated to expel even more of its mass. At the end of its life, its core will collapse, causing its outer layers to explode as a supernova – blasting most of its remaining gas out into the galaxy. Script by Damond Benningfield

It's a special rarities episode featuring deep cuts and unreleased gems. Featured artists include Julieta Venegas, Beastie Boys, Ana Tijoux, Kinky, Juana Molina, Mexican Institute of Sound and more.

People on journeys they did not intend — or agree to. Visit thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners to sign up for our premium subscription.Prologue: A woman on a nighttime bus ride wakes up to discover the bus driver is taking the passengers somewhere none of them want to go. (8  minutes)Act One: Ayman Oghanna was reporting in Syria when he got a surprising call from home: one of his neighbors had been arrested for spying. (13 minutes)Act Two: Eileen Sosin Martínez describes life in Havana right now, where blackouts have become so constant that it’s nearly impossible to make ice and garbage trucks don’t collect the trash regularly. (11 minutes)Act Three: A beloved tree in England, more than 100 years old, is mysteriously cut down overnight, leaving the country bereft and enraged and out for justice. (15 minutes)Act Four: When she was 16, Leticia flew from Sao Paolo, where she lived, to Germany. She was seated next to an older woman who did something so surprising during the flight that Leticia still tells people about it today. (9 minutes)Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.orgThis American Life privacy policy.Learn more about sponsor message choices.